Battle of the Fans Redux: Part 1
We’re going to wrap this whole thing up with a quick (ha!) two-parter with some final conclusions, general observations, and I’m sure many more things that will piss off fans from both sides. Fun!
First up, we have a special guest contributor in the Cheap Seats – Hooks Orpik of Pensburgh fame kindly sent along some thoughts by email and I thought it only fair to present his side to the debate because they were great. All while getting the last word, of course, as is my way…you’ll find his responses in bold, mine in italics.
Take it away, Hooks:
Other than the sweeping generalization that Pens fans consider “all” Caps fans bandwagoners, I think it’s a good point. A lot of the new fans in DC, to me, seem like they’re new to hockey and don’t know much of the history, rules or common courtesies. For example, I recently went to a Caps game where fans would enter/leave their seats during play. Obviously a no-no but these people didn’t know better.
In America the better a team is and the more recognizable players they have the more the “general” public will sway towards getting on the bandwagon. That’s just the natural ebb and flow of a hockey team’s popularity. I think some of the “new” Penguins fans are people that got into the game when Mario/Jagr were around and then faded out…
In short, I don’t consider all Caps fans bandwagoners. But when it comes to trash talking you have to go with something and there’s no doubt the Caps have picked up a lot of fans in the past 12-14 months….Not that it’s a bad thing at all.
I’m not really sure where the assumption that a lot of Caps fans don’t know the rules or history comes in. I’ve heard that a lot and while there are newbies in every crowd there are also those who know the rules, understand the history and have been around for years.
You mention that a lot of “new” Pens fans were around before and have come back; I think the same is true of fans who followed the team in the 80s and early 90s but left when the team became stagnant. The reception Mike Gartner received when his jersey was retired was overwhelming. Rod Langway always gets a nice welcome, as do returning Caps like Yvon Labre, Calle Johansson and Peter Bondra. That tells me there is a sense of history here, even if outsiders don’t see it.
The entering/leaving seats thing is certainly not just a “new” fan trait, either. For years there have been announcements not to do it; people know it, they just don’t care. The ushers are never as strict as they should be and if rules aren’t enforced, sometimes selfish, careless people won’t follow them. I always seem to be sitting near visiting fans from Pittsburgh, Philly and New York who don’t follow the “puck in play” rule, either, by the way. My assumption is rarely that they’re new – just that they’re a bit obnoxious.
Plus you could turn on a game in any arena in the league and see the same thing – I was watching an Oilers game in Edmonton and they were constantly getting up during play. Are Oilers fans bandwagoners or new to hockey? What about Red Wings fans, who give the camera guy a workout trying to shoot around them? The sentiment that there are jackass fans in every fanbase extends to things like this, common courtesy.
In the early 2000s in the “old” NHL (as in before the salary cap and cost certainty) the Penguins were not competitive. Mario Lemieux was still playing (when not injured) but at the end of his career. The Penguins couldn’t compete and basically sold off all of their good players–Jaromir Jagr, Robert Lang, Martin Straka, Alexei Kovalev–for basically nothing but cash and expiring contracts. That’s not a good message to send your customers but it was something the Penguins had to do just to stay in business. It was about the exact same scenario the Caps went through a couple years after Pittsburgh when they basically did the same thing–though at least your general manager was smart/lucky enough to get good young players in return, unlike our ex-GM.
The arena was built in 1961 originally intended as an opera house. There are no cup holders in Mellon Arena. The sightlines are not great in all sections. It’s not as spacious as modern day venues and there are not enough of the revenue generating luxury boxes teams need. For this reason the Pens had to sell off a lot of their players from above since they didn’t make enough money to keep them, but sadly the vicious cycle would continue as fewer fans would show and revenues would further decline.
I have no need to tell Caps fans who suffered through Joel Kwiatkowski and Jason Doig how it feels to cheer for a team who’s top line is Rico Fata, Milan Kraft and Aleksey Morozov, but I will anyways. On top of that you go to a 40+ year old arena to see your team lose on a consistent basis too. Sound like something you’d like to spend thousands of dollars on or would you maybe think twice about how much you invested in such a team.
Hey, we had to suffer through Rico Fata, too! 
Ah, Rico…but yes, it’s a good point. Every team has it’s dark periods that test how strong their devotion is, and if people deserted the Pens for a few years I can understand why. And having been to the Igloo, I understand it’s not exactly a luxury building – then again, it’s an iconic building and it’s YOUR building. I don’t understand not going just because the building kind of sucks.
My point is just that it’s hard for us to endure mocking about being unable to fill our building when for many years we were putting an AHL-caliber team on the ice when you’ve been through it, too. The whole pot calling the kettle black thing, that’s all.
Speaking in very general terms you say you’ve never had types of players like Backstrom, Semin and Green. Obviously a generational star like Ovechkin only comes around rarely but the Caps have had Peter Bondra, Adam Oates, Dale Hunter, Sergei Gonchar, Jaromir Jagr and Robert Lang in the past 10-15 years. That’s nothing to sneeze at.
I’m not arguing anyone in that list is like a Crosby, Lemieux or Ovechkin but they were very good skill players in their primes. Chin up. Maybe you don’t feel inferior to the Penguins now, but a lot of Caps fans still get twitches thinking about a Pens/Caps playoff series just because of how snakebitten, and well inferior Washington has performed when matched up against Pittsburgh.
Oh, we all get twitches thinking about the playoff history, there’s no denying that – but for the first time in my life I feel like whatever playoff curse surrounds the Caps when these two teams meet, I really believe this team could reverse it. No other Caps incarnation has really given me that sense, that belief.
You’re not the only one to suggest I’m an idiot (I’m paraphrasing) for not considering the talented players we’ve had come through here to be on the same level as guys we have now. But in all fairness, I’ve watched this team all my life – I’ve never felt the same excitement about just about any of the guys you mentioned as I do with guys like Semin or Backstrom. Ovechkin is a once in a lifetime talent. He’s the ONLY player of that caliber we’ve ever had. But the others are, I believe, in a class of their own among Caps as well.
Peter Bondra was a great sniper in his day and one of my all-time favorites; but he didn’t have the physical presence of an Ovechkin or the hands of an Alexander Semin that would have put him on a different level. Adam Oates was a great playmaker but didn’t have the same potential that I believe Backstrom to have. Dale Hunter was a tremendous leader, a great agitator and one of the legends among all-time Caps – but he never had the talent to match his heart and energy. You need guys like that to win championships, but I would never claim that he was at a Lemieux/Gretzky/Crosby/Ovechkin level and no one else should, either.
Gonchar, for all his offensive ability, was also often a defensive liability – Green has that tendency now too but is young, is at least improving his defensive game and has much more creativity offensively than Gonchar’s tried and true shot from the point. He’s on the same level of a Paul Coffey, and any one putting Gonchar on that level is kidding themselves. And Robert Lang had the skill but not the work ethic or consistency to really make him the same player he was with Pittsburgh – he disappeared when we needed him to come up big.
And Jagr? Oy. Talk about getting twitches. The guy had one good (not great, mind you) season here, got a big paycheck and then absolutely mailed it in until the Caps were forced to ship him off to New York – and still take on part of his contract. He made no secret of the fact that he hated playing here and badmouthed DC after he left. The one good thing about him was that he helped us tank, dismantle the team and eventually get Ovechkin – the best thing to ever happen to this franchise.
Responding to why it’s okay to mock our players but not okay to mock Pens players…
Because Ovechkin and Semin like men you see, and they must be mocked.
Seriously though, I think it’s in fun. If you want to pay the money to get a Caps jersey that says “Crosby sucks” go for it. If you want to hand out pacifiers, that’s on you. What are Pens fans supposed to do, just take it? Nah, it’s more fun to strike back, a part of the gamesmanship of trash talking. Tit for tat, yes?
Exactly my point. If you get to mock Ovie, we get to pick on Sid. Usually we unite behind our team and not against the other team, but come on – sometimes it’s fun to unite against the other guy. Particularly when it’s so darn easy to do!
It is a cool feeling to go into another team’s home arena and be vocal. I guess it’s hard to explain if you haven’t done it (not trying to take a shot, just sayin)…Just showing up and supporting your team in what’s supposed to be someone else’s home, taking away the inherent natural advantage of the home crowd is pretty cool. While there’s always a good number of Pittsburgh supporters at hockey games, nothing could really compare to last November’s Redskin/Steeler game when the crowd was so loud the Skins had to use a silent count just to snap the ball…At their “home”.
To have that much influence on a game is a pretty cool feeling.
Responding to my statement that sometimes it seems like Penguins fans would rather see their kind dominate another building than see their team win…
Maybe some Penguins fans feel that way, I am not amongst them. I would rather be the only Pens fan in a rabid pit of 18,000 Capitals supporters and see the Pens win than see 5,000 Crosby/Lemieux jerseys and watch the Pens lose. Easily, without a second thought.
Yeah, a lot of people seemed to think I actually believed that was true. I didn’t, I was just exaggerating for dramatic effect – the pleasure people take in just filling the building is weird, in my mind. Do I get that it’s fun to have new friends in an enemy building? Sure. Do I get the sick pleasure some take in rubbing it in our faces? No. Especially not when so many people “from Pittsburgh” live here.
Hopefully that helps you understand the mindset of some Penguins fans. Again, I can’t pretend to speak for everyone and don’t try to.
Now some honest questions for Caps fans:
Generally speaking why do the majority of Capitals fans think every little infraction against the Caps is a penalty? And what’s with the “ref you suck” chants…I don’t see other fanbases do it and I don’t think it has any effect at all on the mindsets of the refs.
I think the natural inclination of any fanbase is to make the assumption that if your player falls down and the other team’s player has touched them in any way, it should be a penalty. But it’s also usually a louder, more united outrage when a call is legitimately missed as so often happens. I’m not really sure how Caps fans got the rep as the only fans who do it – I watched the Pens-Flyers game this weekend and saw the same reaction from Pens fans, and have seen fans of many other teams do the same.
As for the “refs you suck” chants…that’s universal. Another thing that I’ve seen happen in other arenas. We unify behind a common enemy, and whether or not it changes the refs’ mindsets (and I agree, it probably doesn’t) isn’t the issue. It’s a way for us to vent our frustration and come to defense of our team. I like to think it at least tells the team that we’ve got their back as much as we can.
Why chant O during the national anthem? Other than being extremely disrespectful to the nation (in my opinion) this is a Baltimore trend. Isn’t Baltimore/Washington supposed to be rivals? Why ride their flavor? I know not everyone does this, but still enough do to make a loud noise.
The O is one of my biggest pet peeves that sadly seems to be here to stay. But beyond the fact that it’s kind of stupid, I should point out that Baltimore/Washington have never been real rivals – not in the sense that Philly/Pitt are. We have a lot of Baltimore-area fans who are Caps fans and have been since the team’s inception. The Caps were and are the only NHL team in the DC/MD/VA area and so we draw a lot of fans from all three areas. It’s just one of those things that has carried over from the Orioles fans into the Verizon Center.
I would ask about why you fans as a whole spend so much time and effort to hate on Sidney Crosby, but I don’t even think it’s worth it. If you can take a stab at it that would lead to a meaningful response though I would appreciate it.
Ooh, now we get into it. I think I can take a shot at that…
I can’t really speak for all Caps fans and I don’t want to pretend I do. Everyone has their own reasons for hating or liking Crosby – and some people couldn’t care less about him – but for me, there are a couple of reasons.
First and foremost, you have to understand how deep the hatred of the Penguins runs around here. When the Caps stumbled to a horrific finish the year before the lockout and then not only got shortchanged out of a top five pick because of the lockout but also saw the draft’s crowning star go to the Penguins, it was an instant strike against him. Here was a guy who was going to challenge our jackpot draft pick from the year before for league supremacy and he was pulling on the black and gold? Instant hatred. It’s not logical but it’s sports – doesn’t have to be.
And then there’s the fact that in that first season, before the puck was even dropped, the NHL had all but named Crosby rookie of the year. He was the face of the NHL, the Golden Boy, the savior of a league trying to rebound from a PR nightmare. But in doing this they completely disregarded the fact that anyone else – not just Ovechkin – could even challenge for that role. We acknowledge that it’s not Crosby’s fault; he’s done everything that is asked of him and he is one of the great young talents in the league. Still, it leaves a bitter taste when we see the things that Ovechkin has done already and is only now getting attention for.
Beyond all that is simply the way he plays. For whatever reason, the style Crosby plays is more palatable to Pens fans while the style Ovechkin plays is preferred by Caps fans. I’m sure that’s grown out of the fact that Crosby IS a Pen while Ovie IS a Cap. But we like a little personality and flash and the ability to change a game with a single shift/hit/goal; we like a guy who is quotable and lovable and slightly goofy, less polished and more candid. We’ve always had characters on our teams over the years – personality is so important in a market like this and now we have a guy with personality and this once in a lifetime talent. Crosby doesn’t have both, at least not yet.
And yes, we do consider him to be a bit of a whiner. It’s not just that he’s always talking to refs – we get that he wears the C and is allowed to do that. But he’s done it since his rookie year and even though now he’s allowed to do it, he continues to have the facial expression and the body language of a petulant two year old.
I always hear the retort from some Pens fans who say that Ovie talks to refs too and isn’t labeled a whiner – but he never did before he started wearing the A, and when he does talk to them now he’s almost always got a look on his face like he’s genuinely asking for an explanation, not just bitching about something he thought was wrong. Obviously we don’t know what either one of them is actually saying, but outward appearances are important. And the fact that a majority of NHLers voted Crosby as the biggest whiner is very telling.
I guess from my point of view I just don’t respect him. His talent is phenomenal – that I respect. I think he has the potential to be a great leader someday. But right now, particularly this year but in all four seasons, there’s a lot about him that I just don’t like. I thought his “fight” with McLean did less to spark his team than to just show how easily he gets frustrated (and Ovie has the same issue at times, I can admit that). His verbal attacks on Ovechkin when some of his own teammates act the same way seemed to be a bitter reaction to a bad loss. And when he’s not acting frustrated or bitter he’s just stale and kind of boring. I’ve seen him be funny when he’s not “on the spot” – would it kill him to show a little personality, a little color?
Personal opinion, of course, but there it is.
Part two coming up soon(ish) – and then for the love of god, we’re done talking about this for awhile.
…at least until we play the Pens in the playoffs.
how could you forget the valabik speed bagging as a reason to hate sid?
but what pisses me off the most about him is his constant stick work. the kid just does not stop hacking, wacking, and slashing guys all the time. he does it when he doesn’t like a clean hit, he does it when he is frustrated, i have even seen him do it after he lost a faceoff. quit hiding behind the stick.
Comment by passerby — March 22, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
Umm. If hockey in the early 2000’s is “Old Hockey”, I guess I must be ancient because I can remember watching hockey way back before the Capitals were part of the league. Way back when, there was no Great One on the scene, heck, there were far less teams than today.
And we used wooden sticks that rarely broke when you looked at them funny, let alone try and make a shot. Global warming wasn’t a consideration, so ice conditions were better than perfect. Don Cherry was still trying to find coaching jobs. The Miracle on Ice was Paul Henderson’s goal in the ‘72 Canada Russia Series.
So take that you young whippersnappers!
Comment by NS2NOVA — March 22, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
As a Habs fan, I can tell you that it’s not just the Caps fans who hate Crosby…. I’m pretty sure though that it looks like it’s mainly the Caps fans because there’s this whole “Crosby vs Ovie” thing going on….But really… most people hate Sid…
Comment by EP — March 22, 2009 @ 7:54 pm
Yes, I will admit to not being a Penguins fan, after the Caps have had so many problems beating them in playoff series past.
Their current cast of characters (Crosby, Malkin, et. all) remind me of my younger daughter’s middle school rivals, complete with all the smack talking and gossip.
Comment by CapsFan1975 — March 22, 2009 @ 8:23 pm
All I have to say on this matter is the Pens and their fans all s#$k. Hey I just wanted to make sure this was all wrapped up in a mature way that was full of class so Don Cherry wouldn’t have another thing to rant about.
Comment by Usually Frustrated Caps Fan — March 22, 2009 @ 11:07 pm
I’m a Pens fan and I fully understand Caps fans hating Crosby for the league love affair.
We still get comments in Pittsburgh about Ovechkin “stealing” Crosby’s rookie of the year. And that is from commentators, I think I’ve heard a national broadcast say it even.
Also Crosby whined his rookie year while Ovie put his head down and played great hockey.
Crosby still talks, he always will, and he’s a dirty player at times. He plays hard and with emotion, and he’s dang good. Sid talks smack, Ovie taunts; Sid throws some cheap shots, Ovie takes some runs at people. They are similar in their passion and intensity, they just let it out different ways.
I like Ovie and I understand the celebration, but then I’m a soccer fan. I also love that the people who cheer his stunts in the all-star weekend go crazy when he does anything like in the regular season. Especially with all the “we need to see more passion an creativity like this in the league” comments.
Comment by Geoffrey Benedict — March 23, 2009 @ 10:45 am
I think some have pointed out the thing with Crosby–it’s not just Caps fans who don’t like him and his on-ice personality. The established reputation of being a whiner combined with the NHL “golden boy” push and some of the questionable stuff that’s happened with him this past season kind of brought it to a boiling point this season with a lot of fans.
Now, you take that general feeling about Crosby, and then you add it the Caps’ rivalry hatred for all things Pens, and you wind up with fans showing up with signs and proctology outfits. Pretty simple really.
I really respect and like Malkin, despite of the uniform he wears. With Crosby, I only respect his ability.
Plus, the Caps have been on the bad end of the stick for so long with the Pens, so I’m not surprised that Pens fans haven’t gotten to the same level of taunting with Ovechkin or other players yet, leaving most of their creativity to blogs and photoshop. Within the Caps fanbase, there’s a seething hatred for the black and gold that goes back to the 1990s. Once (if, for those non-homer fans) the Capitals get the upper hand in this rivalry, to the point of the Capitals become responsible for killing the Penguins’ Cup hopes, then I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pens fans start showing up to home games with unibrows and caveman outfits.
And that’s good, ’cause it’s supposed to be fun.
Comment by exwhaler — March 23, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
At the first Pens/Caps game this year, I had to explain to a Pens fan sitting next to me what offsides and icing were, and tell her which number Crosby was. Just sayin.
Comment by Sombrero Guy — March 25, 2009 @ 8:20 am
Sombrero Guy sez: “At the first Pens/Caps game this year, I had to explain to a Pens fan sitting next to me what offsides and icing were, and tell her which number Crosby was. Just sayin.”
And I have seen a few Pens fans who didn’t know the difference between the linesmen and the referee. I find this “our fans have more hockey knowledge than your fans” argument to be quite amusing.
Must go now…time to get my Sidney Crosby’s School of Diving T-shirt. ;0)
Comment by Bucky Katt — March 26, 2009 @ 2:57 pm
Sombrero Guy & Bucky Katt,
Don’t you think the need to explain, icing/offsides and the difference between a linesmen/referee happens at least once a game in any NHL/AHL/ECHL,ICL, etc game.
We all had to learn someway and from someone.
So You both went to a game, your first hockey game and immediatley knew what offsides/icing and the ref/linemen were for.
to quote Jules Winnfield
Check out the big brain on Brett.
Comment by kim — April 2, 2009 @ 9:45 pm